Malaysian opposition leader Anwar Ibrahim has borne pressure that would break other men, but he has risen above it time and again – and now has a chance to become the country’s prime minister

When i arranged to fly to Kuala Lumpur to interview former Malaysian deputy prime minister Anwar Ibrahim, I received a message from Anwar’s staff saying I would be met at the airport by Saiful Bukhari Azlan, a young aide. Before I could respond to the email, Saiful, 23, accused Anwar of sodomizing him in a luxury condominium. Anwar insisted the charge was untrue and politically motivated to destroy him as leader of the opposition. Someone else met me at the airport. Despite his impending arrest on the sodomy charges, Anwar agreed to meet me three times in early July at his suburban Kuala Lumpur home overlooking the capital’s skyline. For the first interview, I was greeted at the door by his wife Wan Azizah, who succeeded Anwar as leader of the Keadilan party after he was arrested and jailed in 1998 on charges of corruption and sodomy (the sodomy charges were later overturned and he was released from prison in 2004). I was led to a large dining table, where I conducted the interviews. Anwar pointed to men on a couch across the room. They were his lawyers awaiting the summons for his arrest. (Anwar pleaded not guilty to sodomy charges on August 7 and was out on bail.) On August 26, Anwar won a landslide victory in a by-election in Penang and, at press time, said he had wooed enough defectors from the ruling coalition to take power.

What was the greatest crisis in your life and how do you get through it?
Well, i’m waiting to be arrested, so i’m not sure if i’m past the greatest crisis or it is yet to come. But i believe the most difficult phase was the 1998-99 arrest, beating and incarceration. I have a committed reform agenda. I have strong family support from Azizah and the children and friends, who believe and support the cause. so that gives me the additional strength to carry on.

When you were in prison from 1998 to 2004 what did you think about?
There are times when you are a bit angry; times when you have this sense of despair. The most difficult thing about prison is indolence. You have virtually nothing to do and you tend to get lazy. But you also realize that this is a route to failure. So, usually because you believe, you have a conviction, you know that ultimately you’ll be vindicated and you know that you are standing for a cause, you try to set the best example possible. You hold onto a very rigid discipline of meditation, of reading, of exercise, although i was in extreme pain because of the severe beating by the malaysian police chief. but together with the general sentiment outside, i could sense the support shown by the prison staff.

How were you treated in prison?
Most of the prison staff were kind. The only problem was that i was monitored. There were no newspapers, no radio, no television. But still there were times i could sense the general sentiment and support, and that helped immensely.

How about your family; how about your wife Azizah?
She’s most serious. She’s eloquent. She’s speaks very softly, appealing. We complement each other.

Were the election results of last March, which saw a major shift towards opposition parties, a result – almost an aftershock – of your earlier arrest and imprisonment?
Yeah. the arrest was 1998; the election result was in 1999. It was probably the worst ever [time] for the government, particularly among malays. i think my issue was quite prominently played; my black eye was, of course, on posters all over the country. but i think to a large extent there was also then a sense of, not fatigue, but rejection of mahathir’s leadership. so in 1999 we performed well, but then when mahathir left in 2003, and with the coming of Abdullah [current prime minister Abdullah Ahmad badawi], there was a feeling of relief. so, it was like, “Give this new man a chance,” particularly when he made the right pronouncements on judicial independence, the separation of powers, anti-corruption. so 2004 was quite an experience because the government regained a lot of support. even my incarceration was played up less, because they said Abdullah was not responsible and there was the likelihood that Abdullah would allow the judiciary to be more independent. that was what he promised. of course, he has not delivered. And, of course, in 2008, that was the first time i was allowed to campaign in any elections.

Are you indispensable? If you are arrested, does the opposition lose?
Politicians normally have a big ego, so they feel that they are indispensable. But i think we have spent enough time in trying to cement the relationship between the leaders of the opposition and we have crafted a clear agenda of what we want. I don’t believe that without me things would slow down necessarily, because for six years i was already imprisoned. So i remain optimistic.

Why did Mahathir sack you as deputy prime minister? Some people say it was the Time magazine cover where you were heralded as the hope and future promise of Malaysia, and he didn’t like that.
That probably precipitated the anger, but i think it was broader. Policy issues on how to handle the economy, whether the funds at the time of [the Asian financial] crisis should be allocated to save family and crony companies or to promote general welfare, education, health and rural infrastructure. In The asian Renaissance [Anwar’s book], there was, of course, a clear shift from the authoritarian principle and the so-called Asian values that mahathir had been postulating. “Asian-ness” to me is tagore and sun yat-sen, Gandhi and iqbal. mahathir’s Asian values were an interpretation of filial piety and strong authority.

How you would like Malaysia to function? Should it be a Western-style liberal democracy?
Freedom is freedom. Human rights, basic humanitarian concerns and values are universal concepts. I reject any notion that says the principles of freedom, human rights, even human democratic values are essentially Western. It is human. I mean who would want to be in any country, developing, muslim or otherwise, and not be respected for exercising his or her freedom? So you ask me what sort of democracy would i want? Of course, democracy evolves according to our cultural values. It does not need to be Westminster or capitol hill, but you can’t use this as an excuse not to respect the human rights. After all, the chinese respect sun yat-sen and he had very democratic views.

In most countries in the West, there is a separation of church and state. In Muslim countries, the church and the state are one. How do you see that in Malaysia?
The line is not drawn in a very clear or rigid manner. You see separation of state and religion in the United states, but if you talk to the christian right, then it is certainly not the case.

Well, the president goes to church every Sunday.
Yeah. So i think we should make it abundantly clear that what we do not want is to use religion or, for that matter, a fundamentally secular version [of government] to impose on others, but allow flexibility for people to exercise their own belief. For example, in France, there is an extreme form of secularism.

In France, headscarves are banned in state schools.
You can’t. So i reject this fundamentally secular interpretation and policy, because then you actually deny people their basic rights.

And the state cannot impose a religious rule on an action. You can’t be punished for doing something that is against a religion?
Yes. But like i already told you, you still have the various courts – marriage, divorce – which to my mind is okay. The muslims say, “Why do you need to have british civil law to determine the way you get married or the way you divorce?” But then you have to be very careful in drawing the line because problems sometimes occur if you impose those rules on non-muslims. So yes, you can have some intrusion into state issues.

Is there habeas corpus in Malaysia?
The malaysian internal security Act (isA) is in operation. that is why the malaysian government supports very strongly the Us Patriot Act, which is, to me, is ridiculous because it runs contrary to the spirit of the constitution. If you don’t protect fundamental principles and human liberties, if you allow for a denial or a suspension of the writ of habeas corpus, then there is, to me, no law. No man or woman will be protected. The moment you suspend the writ of habeas corpus or civil liberties, there is no law.

How can this change?
We have to repeal those laws. We have to be tough on any form of violence or terrorism. Terrorism can be in any form. basically we have adequate laws so we shouldn’t have this so-called preventive detention, denying people habeas corpus and then damning them to jail. there are people now in jail for six years and they don’t know what crime they are supposed to have committed.

Can I follow up on that one? The Americans and the Malaysian government cooperate on Bush’s war on terror in turning over prisoners to Malaysia. Should this end?
It must end. I don’t accept this whole notion of the war on terror. I mean, you deal with those perpetrators of violence in a very tough manner. But you cannot have this bush doctrine.

And does tough ever mean torture?
Oh, no, of course not. We must have due process and accepted international standards. I mean, as i see it, for six years these so-called Ji [Jemaah islamiah] members have been in detention [in malaysia]. Not one shred of evidence. What if you’re wrong? Who is going to pay for that? Who is going to answer? And because of that legislation, for opportunistic and selfi sh reasons, these draconian laws are used by the authorities. before i joined the government, i was detained under the isA. After i joined the government, i was detained again under the isA. Who can defend that?

If you were prime minister what would you do in terms of reforms?
Repeal all these draconian, unjust laws. The raison d’?tre for any nation is the rule of law, justice and freedom for the people. So you have to do that. On economic issues, of course, i believe that to attract foreign investment, we will be expected to rid this country of corruption. Malaysia is still attractive compared to many other countries. It’s peaceful, multiracial, has a good workforce. English is widely spoken. The quality of education can be improved. But economic policy must be made clear.